Post by DrGadget on Aug 20, 2014 17:19:32 GMT -5
ANSWERS FOR RON
My brother’s friend Ron came to me with two main spiritual positions, both of which ran counter to my previous beliefs, and both of which I take very seriously. I don’t dismiss them out of hand, but instead have decided to explore the Scriptures to see what God says about the matter.
Position 1: Baptism, and only “proper” baptism, is required for salvation during the “New Testament Era”.
Position 2: If you backslide you will lose your salvation.
First, I will review the handouts Ron gave me.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/761/handouts-copied-pamphlets
Backsliding (and losing your salvation)
Let us investigate the position of “Once saved, always saved”.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/760/saved
Baptism
Let us investigate in whose name you should be baptized.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/759/baptism-name
Let us investigate the requirement for baptism.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/758/baptism-holy-ghost
New Testament
Let us investigate exactly where the New Testament starts, and when the thief on the cross died.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/757/start-new-testament
FINDINGS
For Position 1, I found the following:
a. That every example of baptism being “necessary” for salvation in the Bible was said in the same breath as the word “believe”. There are no examples of baptism being singled out and mentioned separately as being necessary. There are no examples of anyone saying that unless you are baptized, salvation is impossible.
b. There are really two baptisms. Your church performs a baptism ritual upon your body using a large enough supply of water. Everyone can see this happen. But also, the Holy Spirit “baptizes” you into the Body of Christ, which you can’t see.
c. The thief on the cross most definitely died in the New Testament, meaning he was saved without any earthly baptism.
d. Nowhere does the Bible show the Apostles performing baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost as Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:19). They mostly baptized in the name of “Jesus”, which is technically not the same thing. If “100% proper” baptism was needed to be saved, then nobody in the New Testament was saved by any of the Apostles or missionaries.
e. When Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born of water and the Spirit, He meant you must be born as a human, and then be born again as a Christian.
It appears that confusion over the wording in John 3 led to confusion over the permanence of salvation.
For Position 2, I found the following.
a. In John 3:16 the use of the word “should” instead of “shall” indicates God’s intention and reasoning behind the action. God doesn’t want anyone to die and go to Hell. Whenever God’s reasoning is mentioned, the act of salvation is conditional, such as in John 3:16-17. Whenever Scripture concentrates purely on the resultant faith of Man, the act of salvation is rock solid, as in John 3:18.
b. Everlasting life (John 3:16) means exactly that. It’s permanent and eternal. Something that is permanent can’t be destroyed or undone.
c. We are saved by faith, but kept saved by God’s faithfulness. Jesus will not lose one of the souls given to Him by the Father. Jesus will never cast you out.
BOTTOM LINE - ASSURANCE
When I told Ron that you are saved eternally (once saved – always saved), he said, “So if I’m saved, I can just go around committing sins all day long without consequence?”
This is a common argument for the people who believe you can lose your salvation. At no time did I say that it’s fine and dandy for Christians to commit sins all day long. This is a false choice, as there are millions of levels between us living a perfect life (impossible) and doing nothing but committing sins all day every day in defiance of God’s will.
Grace is a safety net, not a hammock. We’re not supposed to get comfortable with sin. We’re supposed to resist sin and eschew evil.
You are not perfect. You will never be perfect until you enter Heaven. Until then, you still have all your flaws and weaknesses. You still have the “old man” of your former carnal self. You are still tempted by the world, the devil, and the flesh.
There are three levels of salvation.
a. Justification. This is where your sins are forgiven and you become a child of God. It happens the moment you believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
b. Sanctification. This is the slow gradual process by which God removes the sin from your life. You don’t reach Abraham level overnight. We grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory. This takes time, effort, and patience. It’s called growing in grace. Abraham was well over 100 years old when he was finished growing in grace. Most of us never finish. I don’t know anyone at the Abraham tier.
c. Glorification. When we die, we get a new body that is incorruptible to sin. Sin no longer has any effect on us. We are locked into a glorious, incorruptible state. Sanctification is complete.
Being constantly on guard against sin is not a bad thing. It’s what we’re supposed to do. But being on guard for fear of losing your salvation is wrong. You’re constantly looking over your shoulder. You’re never in a state of peace. How can you fight God? What if you commit that one big sin and then have a heart attack and die? You’re done. People rarely expect to die on time. Or what if you’ve committed a sin that you think is unpardonable, so you might as well turn your back on God completely? People do this all the time. They assume they have sinned so greatly that they are now unsavable.
No, this is all wrong. You don’t have the faith to maintain perpetual salvation. You have good days and bad days, just like anyone else. To be saved, you show initial faith and then God keeps you perpetually saved through His power. Not yours.
Trusting in God this way leads to something you can’t get if you’re constantly in fear of committing that one horrible sin that will cause you to lose your salvation. Assurance.
Assurance is when you know that you are saved. And you know that you know. It is amazing how much more a Christian will produce for the Kingdom once you find assurance. You can stand up to the devil and tell him to depart. Why? Because the devil has no power to condemn your soul. You can tell people with all confidence that you are saved and that they too can be saved. Why? Because you know that you know you’re saved. There is no power in Heaven or Earth that can undo the great miracle of salvation that the Lord has wrought in you.
In Christ, we have the power and authority to stand up to Satan. But who can stand against God? Nobody. You need to fear God, not Satan.
I am reminded of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely believe that only 144,000 people can be saved. But if that was true, why would any Jehovah’s Witness ever preach to the lost? What if you save that one sinner who knocks you out of your position in Heaven? There’s a conflict of interest here. They can’t have assurance.
Imagine you as a Christian trying to bring someone to salvation when you’re not fully convinced you’re going to Heaven. Your testimony will be weak. There’s a huge difference between someone saying, “I am saved! I know Jesus. My eternity is secure!” and someone who says, “Well I guess, I mean to say that I suppose… you know, I THINK I’m going to Heaven. Maybe. You wanna hear about Jesus?”
Without assurance, you can’t possibly know that you’re going to Heaven. You can hope for it, but that’s about it. God can see the future, but you can’t. Even if your faith is strong today, what if you’re weak on the day you die? Peter thought he would follow Jesus to the death, but Jesus told him he would betray him 3 times before the cock crowed. And then he did. Peter was weak. What greater sin is there than denying Jesus?
Do you think you have more faith than Peter? If so, then why are you not setting the world on fire with your testimony of the glorious Gospel?
You may be a Christian, but you’re not Peter. If Peter could have a moment of weakness, so could you. And if your salvation depended upon your unknowable state of faithfulness at your unknowable time of death, then you can’t be assured of your salvation.
It just occurred to me, that if you could somehow lose your salvation, and then get saved again by re-accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, that you are now unbaptized in your current phase of salvation. If baptism were necessary, would you have to get baptized again? Would you need to get baptized every single time you chose to repent and get right with God? And what church would open the door for you and perform a baptism multiple times a day, based on your fickle faith? Eventually they would tell you to get lost. Unless baptism is permanent and salvation is temporary. This is so backwards that I won’t bother researching it. It would place the act of immersing someone in water far above the act of Christ bleeding and dying for you on the cross. Your immersion is permanent, but the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is temporary? No, that would be insane. But if you came back to Christ for the 12,456th time this year and your church refused to baptize you, this is the lie you would need to cling to. You would have to convince yourself that your previous baptism(s) were permanent even though the salvation gift of Christ could be taken away. Otherwise, salvation is completely impossible for you and you have to go to Hell, no matter how much faith you had.
You are most definitely not kept saved by the power of your own wavering faith. God removes this burden from us. You are initially saved by faith, but you are kept saved by God’s faithfulness. Jesus will not lose even one of the souls given to His charge by the Father. Nobody will slip through the cracks. Jesus won’t say, “Oops, I couldn’t save that one. Sorry.”
Knowing that God won’t let us stray back to damnation, and that the Holy Spirit seals us for the appointed time, we have a great and precious promise from God. We have eternal, inextinguishable, irrevocable, everlasting life with Christ. Understanding this gives us the one thing we couldn’t have any other way. Assurance. We are assured, we have surety, our salvation is sure and certain. Satan and all the forces of Hell can do nothing to separate us from eternity with God. This is not a reason to backslide, but instead a reason to rejoice and make us that much more on fire to save others. We can tell people for a certainty that there is hope. They can be saved permanently, just as we were. They can obtain a salvation that no man can pluck away. Assurance is a wonderful thing.
When I was talking to Ron, I knew nothing at all about the Baptism into the Body of Christ. By researching what he said about the need for baptism, the Holy Spirit guided me to yet another “hidden truth”, as only He can. I can’t recall ever hearing anyone preach on the subject of being baptized (by the Holy Spirit) into the Body of Christ. The only baptism I have ever heard mentioned or preached was the obvious physical baptism that we can see with our earthly eyes. Believers and non-believers alike can see this happen.
I am grateful to Ron for giving me this opportunity to go deeper into the Scriptures and find the hidden truths that the Holy Spirit wanted to show me. Iron sharpens iron. When people discuss the Scriptures and study them, they become sharper and more useful to the will of God.
Ron has already sharpened me by what he told me that night, and by allowing me to read his handouts. I pray that Ron receives an equal or greater blessing, in that he is also sharpened by this response.
My brother’s friend Ron came to me with two main spiritual positions, both of which ran counter to my previous beliefs, and both of which I take very seriously. I don’t dismiss them out of hand, but instead have decided to explore the Scriptures to see what God says about the matter.
Position 1: Baptism, and only “proper” baptism, is required for salvation during the “New Testament Era”.
Position 2: If you backslide you will lose your salvation.
First, I will review the handouts Ron gave me.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/761/handouts-copied-pamphlets
Backsliding (and losing your salvation)
Let us investigate the position of “Once saved, always saved”.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/760/saved
Baptism
Let us investigate in whose name you should be baptized.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/759/baptism-name
Let us investigate the requirement for baptism.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/758/baptism-holy-ghost
New Testament
Let us investigate exactly where the New Testament starts, and when the thief on the cross died.
deepthink.proboards.com/thread/757/start-new-testament
FINDINGS
For Position 1, I found the following:
a. That every example of baptism being “necessary” for salvation in the Bible was said in the same breath as the word “believe”. There are no examples of baptism being singled out and mentioned separately as being necessary. There are no examples of anyone saying that unless you are baptized, salvation is impossible.
b. There are really two baptisms. Your church performs a baptism ritual upon your body using a large enough supply of water. Everyone can see this happen. But also, the Holy Spirit “baptizes” you into the Body of Christ, which you can’t see.
c. The thief on the cross most definitely died in the New Testament, meaning he was saved without any earthly baptism.
d. Nowhere does the Bible show the Apostles performing baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost as Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:19). They mostly baptized in the name of “Jesus”, which is technically not the same thing. If “100% proper” baptism was needed to be saved, then nobody in the New Testament was saved by any of the Apostles or missionaries.
e. When Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born of water and the Spirit, He meant you must be born as a human, and then be born again as a Christian.
It appears that confusion over the wording in John 3 led to confusion over the permanence of salvation.
For Position 2, I found the following.
a. In John 3:16 the use of the word “should” instead of “shall” indicates God’s intention and reasoning behind the action. God doesn’t want anyone to die and go to Hell. Whenever God’s reasoning is mentioned, the act of salvation is conditional, such as in John 3:16-17. Whenever Scripture concentrates purely on the resultant faith of Man, the act of salvation is rock solid, as in John 3:18.
b. Everlasting life (John 3:16) means exactly that. It’s permanent and eternal. Something that is permanent can’t be destroyed or undone.
c. We are saved by faith, but kept saved by God’s faithfulness. Jesus will not lose one of the souls given to Him by the Father. Jesus will never cast you out.
BOTTOM LINE - ASSURANCE
When I told Ron that you are saved eternally (once saved – always saved), he said, “So if I’m saved, I can just go around committing sins all day long without consequence?”
This is a common argument for the people who believe you can lose your salvation. At no time did I say that it’s fine and dandy for Christians to commit sins all day long. This is a false choice, as there are millions of levels between us living a perfect life (impossible) and doing nothing but committing sins all day every day in defiance of God’s will.
Grace is a safety net, not a hammock. We’re not supposed to get comfortable with sin. We’re supposed to resist sin and eschew evil.
You are not perfect. You will never be perfect until you enter Heaven. Until then, you still have all your flaws and weaknesses. You still have the “old man” of your former carnal self. You are still tempted by the world, the devil, and the flesh.
There are three levels of salvation.
a. Justification. This is where your sins are forgiven and you become a child of God. It happens the moment you believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
b. Sanctification. This is the slow gradual process by which God removes the sin from your life. You don’t reach Abraham level overnight. We grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory. This takes time, effort, and patience. It’s called growing in grace. Abraham was well over 100 years old when he was finished growing in grace. Most of us never finish. I don’t know anyone at the Abraham tier.
c. Glorification. When we die, we get a new body that is incorruptible to sin. Sin no longer has any effect on us. We are locked into a glorious, incorruptible state. Sanctification is complete.
Being constantly on guard against sin is not a bad thing. It’s what we’re supposed to do. But being on guard for fear of losing your salvation is wrong. You’re constantly looking over your shoulder. You’re never in a state of peace. How can you fight God? What if you commit that one big sin and then have a heart attack and die? You’re done. People rarely expect to die on time. Or what if you’ve committed a sin that you think is unpardonable, so you might as well turn your back on God completely? People do this all the time. They assume they have sinned so greatly that they are now unsavable.
No, this is all wrong. You don’t have the faith to maintain perpetual salvation. You have good days and bad days, just like anyone else. To be saved, you show initial faith and then God keeps you perpetually saved through His power. Not yours.
Trusting in God this way leads to something you can’t get if you’re constantly in fear of committing that one horrible sin that will cause you to lose your salvation. Assurance.
Assurance is when you know that you are saved. And you know that you know. It is amazing how much more a Christian will produce for the Kingdom once you find assurance. You can stand up to the devil and tell him to depart. Why? Because the devil has no power to condemn your soul. You can tell people with all confidence that you are saved and that they too can be saved. Why? Because you know that you know you’re saved. There is no power in Heaven or Earth that can undo the great miracle of salvation that the Lord has wrought in you.
In Christ, we have the power and authority to stand up to Satan. But who can stand against God? Nobody. You need to fear God, not Satan.
I am reminded of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely believe that only 144,000 people can be saved. But if that was true, why would any Jehovah’s Witness ever preach to the lost? What if you save that one sinner who knocks you out of your position in Heaven? There’s a conflict of interest here. They can’t have assurance.
Imagine you as a Christian trying to bring someone to salvation when you’re not fully convinced you’re going to Heaven. Your testimony will be weak. There’s a huge difference between someone saying, “I am saved! I know Jesus. My eternity is secure!” and someone who says, “Well I guess, I mean to say that I suppose… you know, I THINK I’m going to Heaven. Maybe. You wanna hear about Jesus?”
Without assurance, you can’t possibly know that you’re going to Heaven. You can hope for it, but that’s about it. God can see the future, but you can’t. Even if your faith is strong today, what if you’re weak on the day you die? Peter thought he would follow Jesus to the death, but Jesus told him he would betray him 3 times before the cock crowed. And then he did. Peter was weak. What greater sin is there than denying Jesus?
Do you think you have more faith than Peter? If so, then why are you not setting the world on fire with your testimony of the glorious Gospel?
You may be a Christian, but you’re not Peter. If Peter could have a moment of weakness, so could you. And if your salvation depended upon your unknowable state of faithfulness at your unknowable time of death, then you can’t be assured of your salvation.
It just occurred to me, that if you could somehow lose your salvation, and then get saved again by re-accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, that you are now unbaptized in your current phase of salvation. If baptism were necessary, would you have to get baptized again? Would you need to get baptized every single time you chose to repent and get right with God? And what church would open the door for you and perform a baptism multiple times a day, based on your fickle faith? Eventually they would tell you to get lost. Unless baptism is permanent and salvation is temporary. This is so backwards that I won’t bother researching it. It would place the act of immersing someone in water far above the act of Christ bleeding and dying for you on the cross. Your immersion is permanent, but the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is temporary? No, that would be insane. But if you came back to Christ for the 12,456th time this year and your church refused to baptize you, this is the lie you would need to cling to. You would have to convince yourself that your previous baptism(s) were permanent even though the salvation gift of Christ could be taken away. Otherwise, salvation is completely impossible for you and you have to go to Hell, no matter how much faith you had.
You are most definitely not kept saved by the power of your own wavering faith. God removes this burden from us. You are initially saved by faith, but you are kept saved by God’s faithfulness. Jesus will not lose even one of the souls given to His charge by the Father. Nobody will slip through the cracks. Jesus won’t say, “Oops, I couldn’t save that one. Sorry.”
Knowing that God won’t let us stray back to damnation, and that the Holy Spirit seals us for the appointed time, we have a great and precious promise from God. We have eternal, inextinguishable, irrevocable, everlasting life with Christ. Understanding this gives us the one thing we couldn’t have any other way. Assurance. We are assured, we have surety, our salvation is sure and certain. Satan and all the forces of Hell can do nothing to separate us from eternity with God. This is not a reason to backslide, but instead a reason to rejoice and make us that much more on fire to save others. We can tell people for a certainty that there is hope. They can be saved permanently, just as we were. They can obtain a salvation that no man can pluck away. Assurance is a wonderful thing.
When I was talking to Ron, I knew nothing at all about the Baptism into the Body of Christ. By researching what he said about the need for baptism, the Holy Spirit guided me to yet another “hidden truth”, as only He can. I can’t recall ever hearing anyone preach on the subject of being baptized (by the Holy Spirit) into the Body of Christ. The only baptism I have ever heard mentioned or preached was the obvious physical baptism that we can see with our earthly eyes. Believers and non-believers alike can see this happen.
I am grateful to Ron for giving me this opportunity to go deeper into the Scriptures and find the hidden truths that the Holy Spirit wanted to show me. Iron sharpens iron. When people discuss the Scriptures and study them, they become sharper and more useful to the will of God.
Ron has already sharpened me by what he told me that night, and by allowing me to read his handouts. I pray that Ron receives an equal or greater blessing, in that he is also sharpened by this response.
